dimanche 25 octobre 2009

Am I too libertarian for FSSPX? Hope not.

The priest on whose mass I heard the sermon in St Nicolas de Chardonnet named libertarianism as one of the heretical false philosophies that ruin Christian society or societies that should be Christian. Because, as the Gospel today (Feast of Christ the King) states, the Divine truth about God and about man to which Christ came to bear witness, has royal prerogatives.

Before I repost debates, let me state I am libertarian about some things in order not to be libertarian about other things. I am libertarian about poor parents begging in the street keeping their children, since I am not libertarian at all about abortion or about adoption by homosexual couples. I am libertarian about two homosexual couples, one male and one female, exchanging partners into making two two-sexed couples in order to marry. The idea is not of personal importance to me, but it is of juridic importance, since in some states denying people the right to marry on account of their homosexual leanings constitutes or may easily be construed as constituting a crime of discrimination. Notably the land I left in 2004. It is also of pastoral importance, because I am not libertarian at all about priests trying to remake homosexual couples into chaste friendships and giving communion to public sinners in the process.

I was debating some on libertarianism on Facebook, where a friend (whom I consider one, and whom I would be honoured to dine with) was debating with a friend of his (whether he considers him so or is a superficial acquaintance I known not) who admires Ayn Rand. I am not about to repost their entire remarks on the Ayn Rand link and on each others' remarks, since I have not asked permission to do so. I will however, as often before, repost my remarks, which sometimes quote what they answer.

Here comes my first remark, quoting other remarks:

Who agrees that a man who has no home has a right to squat wherever the owners and flat renters wil[l] let him?

The Catholic Social teaching, as existing before Vatican II, had a solid base in history, and laissez-faire as a step away from that has been such a big step to:

  • state socialism by ways of
  • private enterprise monopoly/oligopoly socialism
  • rich man decides what charity poor man gets from medium income man socialism


"If a worker should be able to keep the object of his labors, lest it be socialism, how would you split a toy amongst those on the assembly line who made it?"



1 why assembly line? if more toys _but nothing else_ were made by artisans, the other ones who worked on assembly lines could not afford them, but if more toys _and about more of everything else_ were made by artisans, it would be feasible

2 _even with_ an assembly line: a toy does not come out of it alone, if there are ten workers and hundred toys made, why not ten toys to each worker, he can go and sell in market place next day, while those who are selling can go back to work and invest what they want in materials, et c

"The right of free speech means that a man has the right to express his ideas without danger of suppression, interference or punitive action by the government. It does not mean that others must provide him with a lecture hall, a radio station or a printing press through which to express his ideas."



True. But it does mean that if a tribune IS provided, like free internet in libraries, it must be available without suppression for expressing wrong ideas. Or for using expression to get in income (see my music page http://o-x.fr/z5k)



and here is my second remark:


"There are no “rights to a ‘fair’ wage or a ‘fair’ price” if no one chooses to pay it, to hire a man or to buy his product. There are no “rights of consumers” to milk, shoes, movies or champagne if no producers choose to manufacture such items (there is only the right to manufacture them oneself)."



That is where you are wrong. There is the right not to be cheated.

If a set of rich men ruin small producers by undercutting their prices for as long as it takes to ruin competition and then raise prices so as to compensate for that, if thus former competitors have been given the option to change their branch of business, to be dependents or to get real broke, and that in turn means a lot of more men depending on lowered prices and making those rich men richer, I think that both craftsmen _and_ general public have been cheated by them.

"There are no “rights” of special groups, there are no “rights of farmers, of workers, of businessmen, of employees, of employers, of the old, of the young, of the unborn.” There are only the Rights of Man—rights possessed by every individual man and by all men as individuals."



Wrong again. That is socialism.


Before me making my third remark, some of my remarks had been answered and answers answered, here goes:


"As for someone by selling a product cheaper or better the competition being cheating, it is not of course. It is simply winning."



Unless it is done in a fraudulent way so as to suggest permanently lower prices, whereas in effect the prices are raised soon after the competition is gone.

"As for people having the right to take property anywhere because they feel it is "vacant" or in "disuse"= this is socialism, which brings us back to the fact that many Christians argue for socialism, for slavery, for evil- which indicated clearly that your ideology has serious problems."



Not so. The right for a "first occupant" to take a "res nullius" is at the core of classic Roman property juridics. Socialism is when you say everyone has a duty to bring along a bureaucracy which will give the homeless a home, and every homeless has a duty to pass by that bureaucracy, avoiding all squatting.

Actually, the question whether a building which is condemned by authorities for ordinary purposes and certainly not being repaired at the moment is to be considered a "res nullius" was not my actual question. There are squatter collectives which answer in the affirmative, I am not part of them.

Mine was: if I enter an open door this night and noone minds if I stay one night beside their flat, as long as it is understood it is just one night and as long as I do not degrade, is it my right to do so?

7 commentaires:

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

My opponent basically objected that "fraud is indirect use of physical force" and that treating neglected property as the equivalent of res nullius for the needs of someone else is slavery. My answer:

Fraud is indirect use of physical force? Oh boy, and abusing someone else's need to make a profit that ruins your competition or the person himself or both is somehow NOT?

Someone's right to life sometimes DOES over-ride someone else's right to abuse property. If person A is bleeding to death and person B has enough textile to make a bandage but refuses it on the ground that payment has not been made, or that an exorbitant payment has been refused, person B is a killer, and person C has a right to take away from him some textile to stop that killing by making a bandage for person A.

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

It may be added that the Parisians are to gentle to give me such a fix as that.

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

It may also be added:

The person B has a right to be compensated at a just price for the textile he is forced to give up. On the other hand person A has a right to complain about an exorbitant price having been asked and help to save his life refused since not agreed on.

In the case of illegal occupations, they often reach a free market agreement with property owners, to the effect: owner gets some kind of rent, though less than if he had had flats to rent out to ordinary renters. Occupants agree in advance to cease occupations when demolition works or reconstruction works commence. I have so far avoided living under such arrangements, because, since they agree not to degrade, they set up a collective discipline which in effect comprises many more things than not to degrade, and amounts to a socialist or collectivist way of life. Who wants that, who am I to disagree, I do not.

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

this post no available as http://o-x.fr/c6n

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

And as little as I am libertarian in the sense of anarchist, still less am I primitivist in the sense of anti-agrarian.

I think the Industrial Revolution of the 18th C was bad, not that the Agrarian Revolution was. Or that it happened like Darwinists say, after long eras of hunters-gatherers. Like clothes, it happened to palliate the bad effects of the fall of Adam. Taking it for the fall, as primitivists do, is like taking a medicine for a bacterium.

The Cro-Magnon of Dordogne, to my rational judgement, informed by Biblical History and by findings, and informed ON what non-believers in Biblical history make of those findings, are neither pre-Adamites, nor otherwise pre-agriculture, but post-Adamites, Adamides, possibly antediluvian ones, and probably very early primitivists, or descended from such. As I also believe that later peoples living "stone-age style" are descendants of either primitivists, outlaws or Swiss Family Robinsons.

But though I think primitivism is a doctrinal error, I think its coincidence with some aspects of hermitic life, may be spiritually beneficial, though I am far from considering such incidental benefits as sufficient for salvation in themselves.

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

Links, mostly, including to Fr. Huneycutt, Bishop Williamson, John Sandinopoulos, and some of my comments, these being English counterpart to "Mon retour des Orthodoxes à la FSSPX":

1 Hungarians do play guitar (link) 2 China 3 Orthodixie: "Of course Sponge Bob is gay" (link) 4 Dale Ahlquist: "G.K. Chesterton and The Perils of ... 5 "Generous Orthodoxy" defends fallibilism? 6 Brain death diagnosis kills? (link) 7a "Kill your parents" +40ys=Educate your children! (link) b I don't believe in Weathermen c How e v e r 8 "When does His Grace Hilarion sleep?" /Orthodixie ... 9 Airport Tyranny/Dinoscopus (link) 10 Mark Pivarunas, bishop, speaks (link) 11 Between Sunday of Genealogy and Christmas Day (links) 12 Two courageous men, two heavily conformist communities... 13 Reading time for Mgr Williamson! 14 Update 1: Mgr Williamson apologises for hurting people... 15 Update 3: some do not apologise or avoid schism (update 2 is in French series) 16 Count-down to St Patrick's - a link to his "breast plate"... 17 Happy St Patrick's day, all of you ... 18 Annunciation 19 Happy Annunciation, Old Calendarists! - 20 Great and Holy Tuesday (link to Fr. James) - 21 Orthodox Holy Week (link to Fr Huneycutt) - 22 Christ is risen! - 23 Il est vraiment ressuscité 24 Piracy and slavehunt are not Christian things 25 A book and a site they might not want you to read ... 26 Today's celebrations: 27 Blessed feast of the Dormition! 28 My dear Bishop Williamson, if I had earned money a... 29 Brother Dimond refutes claim that Shroud of Turin is a fake (link, youtube)... 30 Am I too libertarian for FSSPX? Hope not. 31 a Mystagogy posts certainly false allegation on St Robert Bellarmine... - b Pseudoquote identified. What De Romano Pontifice, ... really says - c Further faults of fact in the Mystagogy post

Hans-Georg Lundahl a dit…

Links, mostly, including to Fr. Huneycutt, Bishop Williamson, John Sandinopoulos, and some of my comments, these being English counterpart to "Mon retour des Orthodoxes à la FSSPX":

1 Hungarians do play guitar (link) 2 China 3 Orthodixie: "Of course Sponge Bob is gay" (link) 4 Dale Ahlquist: "G.K. Chesterton and The Perils of ... 5 "Generous Orthodoxy" defends fallibilism? 6 Brain death diagnosis kills? (link) 7a "Kill your parents" +40ys=Educate your children! (link) b I don't believe in Weathermen c How e v e r 8 "When does His Grace Hilarion sleep?" /Orthodixie ... 9 Airport Tyranny/Dinoscopus (link) 10 Mark Pivarunas, bishop, speaks (link) 11 Between Sunday of Genealogy and Christmas Day (links) 12 Two courageous men, two heavily conformist communities... 13 Reading time for Mgr Williamson! 14 Update 1: Mgr Williamson apologises for hurting people... 15 Update 3: some do not apologise or avoid schism (update 2 is in French series) 16 Count-down to St Patrick's - a link to his "breast plate"... 17 Happy St Patrick's day, all of you ... 18 Annunciation 19 Happy Annunciation, Old Calendarists! - 20 Great and Holy Tuesday (link to Fr. James) - 21 Orthodox Holy Week (link to Fr Huneycutt) - 22 Christ is risen! - 23 Il est vraiment ressuscité 24 Piracy and slavehunt are not Christian things 25 A book and a site they might not want you to read ... 26 Today's celebrations: 27 Blessed feast of the Dormition! 28 My dear Bishop Williamson, if I had earned money a... 29 Brother Dimond refutes claim that Shroud of Turin is a fake (link, youtube)... 30 Am I too libertarian for FSSPX? Hope not. 31 a Mystagogy posts certainly false allegation on St Robert Bellarmine... - b Pseudoquote identified. What De Romano Pontifice, ... really says - c Further faults of fact in the Mystagogy post